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  1. My bet is "no modern Schoenberg" means no one person (either teacher or composer) who is leading a big movement to promote a new framework or sound school.

  2. I did just finish a microtonal symphony, though as you've stated, It's probably a niche thing.

  3. Me? I'm trying to bridge the microtonal stuff with more Western Classical and Medieval-based (

  4. Those (and others) all "work", the question is only "how", or how strong a tonicization (or what kind) you want.

  5. Thanks for that. What about the Vqrt7? Are there any other things I should know about this?

  6. How about a G-C-Db-F chord? What does that do when preceded by Dbmaj and followed by Cmin in the context of C Phrygian? Sorry for having three replies, but this last option only occurred to me thanks to another conversation about this on Discord.

  7. This kind of question sounds like it's something a microtonalist like me can answer, and as such, I'm sorry I'm late to the party.

  8. Thanks for this, I messed around with this last night, but I’ll do it again later in a less tired state. Is the Bdb right? Is this Bb d ? Sorry , I wanted to make sure it wasn’t a typo. (In the 2nd example)

  9. Yeah, Bdb is no typo, as it means B-Sesquiflat, that is, one and a half semitones flat of B.

  10. I'm a University music professor. While I appreciate that vision, it doesn't work for the vast majority of students. You have a limited amount of time to teach an almost unlimited amount of information, so it's important to pick your battles, teach the most useful stuff, and build on that. Of course, you hope that they'll get interested and dig deeper on their own.

  11. There are functions and then, the name of the scale degrees (you know like Tonic super tonic, mediant etc) but they are two different things I should add maybe that is what they are referring to on wikipedia, like the seven degree names, but function is indeed just 3 and maybe mediants depending on who you ask

  12. The Supertonic actually has two functions- Didominant (that is, Double Dominant), and Serviant Parallel (that is, Subdominant Parallel), so yes, I think that while Tonic, Dominant and Serviant (that is, Subdominant) are the three primary functions, I think that the Supertonic does indeed have its own derivative functions. The same goes for Subtonic, Lead (leading tone below the Tonic) and Contralead (leading tone above the Tonic).

  13. Thats interesting! But I guess like 65TwinReverbRI says, its all esoteric, like not a big deal because to be fair, the simpler the terms are the better, you could also think of function on a chord to chord basis, from my point of view does some nice things, because you can categorize functions (or degree difference) by common tones and whatnot.

  14. It may be esoteric in the eyes of many, but if you're trying to build on it, it's wise to have good sources.

  15. For what it's worth, I think of modes as being different types of tonality with different keynotes, or Tonics, all sharing the same set of notes in their respective scales. Because of their different configurations, they behave differently in terms of harmony, and have different characteristics. Three of the modes are Major, three are Minor, and one, Locrian, produces what I call "Diatonic Blighted" since it has a Flat-V.

  16. While I cannot pretend to understand many aspects of your theory, I think you should be commended for inventiveness in coming up with new jargon. I especially liked the 'gravotyrant'.

  17. Thanks. Still, I wonder what aspects you did manage to understand... Especially since I could use help in making it more understandable.

  18. Not going to lie, I was hoping for more feedback and stuff in the comments on this, but it seems I got an icy reception instead...

  19. Here's the thing: none of these are examples of what you often see in music that is described as being in those modes.

  20. How do I share ideas for new things that you can do in Diatonic modes then?

  21. I know this. However, I wanted to show what these modes can sound like- not necessarily what they commonly sound like now.

  22. Aren't you just saying the same thing in different words?

  23. Inverting a melody means to do the same sequence of intervals but to instead go up if the original interval went down, or to go down if the original interval went up.

  24. I mean both things. I'm sorry. I'm having trouble getting my thoughts as organized as they should be.

  25. You mean in an octave? Mathematically there is no limit but there is a point where frequencies will be so close to each other that humans can't distinguish them anymore. If I remember correctly, that point would be around 5 cents (5% or 1/20 of a semitone), so the absolute maximum judging from that should be 240 notes per octave.

  26. Nice, you beat me to it, though to be fair, there's a difference between the melodic JND at around 5 cents and the harmonic JND at around 3.5 cents.

  27. I know this is microtonality, but I figured that since this notation system is ultimately an expansion on the familiar circle of fifths notation, it wouldn't be bad to learn for those here who are interested in microtonality.

  28. The 11th harmonic works well in a chord along with the Tonic and the seventh harmonic. You can even follow this up with a Dominant seventh chord on the Dominant.

  29. Actually, in this system, you can use 53 perfect fifths of 31\159 to reach the octave. However, the wolf fifth of 40/27 is still available and can be used at 30\159- what's more, it's actually usable in diatonic contexts.

  30. Not necessarily, since there is such a thing as microtonality. That said, if you're talking about octaves, then yes.

  31. Rest chords are what you're used to. In medieval music, the third was considered dissonant. Then in common practice harmony thirds were consonant but sevenths were considered dissonant. Now, in barbershop and jazz, seventh chords can be considered consonant. It's a matter of what you're used to. You're going to have to listen to quite a bit of something to start perceiving it as consonant

  32. I use the 11th quite a bit, and even I think that's an ambisonance- that is, both a consonance and a dissonance at the same time.

  33. This is interesting... At this point I don't know what to say... I'm wondering if our talks had any influence on the content of this video...

  34. Really interested in how these circles work in other tunings. Especially interested in the circle of seventh in a tuning with really good harmonic sevenths.

  35. Oh, and I should mention that this video is another breakthrough for me in my theory, and, to be honest, when more than one of these harmonic circles are at play in a scale, like, for instance, in the Diatonic scale, I'd save the term "Dominant" for the strongest and least complex one- in this case, the Third Harmonic. Everything else, such as the Ninth Subharmonic (that is, the familiar Flat-VII), I'd term a "Paradominant".

  36. Yeah, the terminology is a mess, even in standard theory. "Dominant" referring to the fifth degree OR the fifth, the seventh AND flat seventh, and "Subdominant" referring to the fourth degree OR the second and fourth and a smattering of oddballs. Life would be a lot easier if Hugo Riemann had used new terms for functions encompassing groups of chords rather than just using the names of exemplars. "Predominant" gives an out for subdominant, which is why I've come to use it. Similarly I'd think "Paradominant" would be better applied to all dominant function chords, including V, even though I agree it's the strongest.

  37. Regarding some of the terminological issues, I don't think that "paradominant" is the right term for all dominant function chords since "para-" means "alongside" or "resembling"- more like "protodominant". Oh, and as for things like "Subdominant", I have fixes in mind for those too. The reverse of a Dominant function is what I call a "Serviant" function, and the counterpart to "protodominant" in this case is "protoserviant". By the way, there are both "predominant" and "preserviant" functionalities in my book.

  38. Sure, all I’m saying is you don’t really need new rules when you can just say “7 and 11 are consonances now, 81/64 is not” and then all the “rules” still do what you want. Of course this has been said before, but I don’t really like composing by rules anyways, they’re a fantastic teaching tool and studying them will develop the tools at your disposal, but then when composing just use those tools freely as you like

  39. I should have said this before, but what I've done in these areas is say that 7 and 11 are "ambisonances" in part on the basis of both the views of people like Marin Mersenne, Giuseppe Tartini, Leonhard Euler, François-Joseph Fétis, J. A. Serre, Moritz Hauptmann, Alexander John Ellis, Wilfred Perrett, and Max Friedrich Meyer, who all consider the 7 to be consonant, and the views of Gioseffo Zarlino, René Descartes, Jean-Philippe Rameau, Hermann von Helmholtz, Arthur von Oettingen, Hugo Riemann, Colin Brown, and Paul Hindemith, who all consider the 7 to be dissonant. I'm literally saying that in this case, both camps are right, and thus, I'm treating 7 and 11 accordingly.

  40. That’s a cool take, do you treat them differently based on context or do they permanently have properties of both?

  41. As a follow-up to my other reply, I should mention that when you get into the finer details concerning ambisonances, you find that different ambisonant intervals have different collections of consonant and dissonant properties, and one must learn to pay attention to these nuances all while keeping track of the fact that- in Western-Classical-based harmony at least- the octave-inverse of a given interval is considered to share properties with said interval, due to octave equivalence.

  42. Anyone have thoughts on 53edo's Supraminor and Submajor intervals? I'm trying to find the uses of those based on 13-limit JI.

  43. ok, here is a piece that toggles back and forth between that diatonic scale and a hanson scale:

  44. In a neomedieval European style, sonorities like 1/1-7/6-3/2-7/4 (12:14:18:21) are at once smooth and suave, and very efficiently resolve to stable intervals by stepwise contrary motion with melodic steps, for example, around 9:8 and 28:27. I typically use tunings with near-just representations of primes 2-3-7-11-13, where 7:9:11:13 and 16:21:24:28 are examples of new sonorities which also resolve efficiently and compellingly to stable intervals or sonorities (2:3:4, 4:3:2, or simple fifths and fourths). Anyone familiar with 14th-century European cadences may understand what I am describing for 12:14:18:21, but a JI notation for a typical four-voice resolution may help:

  45. Others here may disagree, but I myself find this to be particularly useful given that I do indeed intend to draw in part from Medieval Music's Florid Organum in my own style of composition- I mean, I already have an active distinction between 81/64 and 5/4 with the former being a dissonance and the latter being a consonance. That said, the part where you present the JI notation for a typical four-voice resolution needs reformatting so I can read it better.

  46. Let me try the two-linebreak method, to see if this may be more reliable:

  47. So, the main things I take from these examples are that tetrads can reduce to dyads due to major thirds expanding to fifths and minor thirds shrinking to unisons. Any other tricks from Medieval and Neo-Medieval harmony I should be aware of? I'm sure there's quite a few...

  48. Re: the first video you linked, I think that pedagogically (and cognitively) it's better to consider them as alterations of existing chords and scale degrees. Rather than introducing new Roman numerals such as IX through XV, it's easier to think of them as what they are - microtonal alterations. Hearing the chord progressions provided in the video, I can't help but hear them as simply the usual chords, only slightly detuned or sharp. We already have a way of thinking about, for instance iii becoming bIII (modal mixture) and I would definitely encourage this YouTuber to do something similar for these quartertone harmonies: perhaps it could be called xbIII or something to that effect. Keep in mind I am also biased towards being somewhat (or a lot of) a musical conservative and skeptic, in the sense that I'm not convinced that this is really harmonic novelty rather than more of a timbral or textural effect - it can sound interesting but at the end of the day the root motions do not sound fundamentally different to me - is it really different from using detuned chords (i.e. My Bloody Valentine, Sonic Youth) to add a certain emotion to what is a fundamentally tonal/diatonic framework? You are much deeper into this than me, so I don't mean to discount anything. The quartertone motions in Jacob Collier are certainly compelling, but again I feel that it may be best used and viewed as an enhancement to existing frameworks rather than some altogether novel system. I feel that the introduction of RNs/SDs such as XI and up very much misleads in that respect. My two cents.

  49. For what it's worth, I too have conservative leanings, and I'm in agreement about the roman numerals. Nevertheless, when you ask me whether it's really different from using detuned chords to add a certain emotion to what is fundamentally a diatonic framework, I'd say that while what you're describing does play a role in this, there's a bit more to it that you're giving credit.

  50. Hi, this isn't my area so I really couldn't speak to these issues. In my experience there are not a lot of good or reliable tuning and temperament resources out there as far as guiding composers or theorists. Have you spent some time with the Cambridge History of Western Music Theory?

  51. No, not really. I do try and watch Richard Atkinson's breakdowns of Classical music on YouTube in order to learn about "motifs", as well as other online resources showcasing the larger form and stuff like that, and I do try and learn what I can about Western Classical from those sources.

  52. I use the t4 scale degree a lot, especially the 1-2-t4-5 chord.

  53. On the whole, I'd say both a 1-4 and a 1-t4 both feel resolved compared to a 1-#4, but that's only when you don't also have the 5, as the resulting interval between the 4 or t4 on one hand and the 5 on the other causes crowding- hence a need for resolution to my ear. Once you do create that kind of tension, either the 4 or t4 can go down to a major 3, or, the 5 can go up to either a d6 or b6- does that make sense? Of course, there's other options, and I'm still looking to find those, but still... thanks...

  54. I was kind of taking for granted that the 5 is present in the chord, or at least the root is established strongly such that the 5 is implied. It might be my imagination but in that context t4 feels more like a chord tone that belongs (compared with 4 and #4 which feels like tension tones), perhaps because it’s a fairly low harmonic. It very well might feel unresolved to you, but it might just be the voicing/timbre. To me it has a similar sound to a maj7 chord; you can voice it with the 7 and 1 next to each other but in general I wouldn’t say that chord wants to resolve.

  55. Oddly enough, I think even Major Seventh Chords are unresolved because the major seventh crowds the octave, and even in the absence of the octave, I get the sense that the chord wants to decompose into a triad with octave-reduplication of the root. Yes, the octave is a very common interval in my polypedal harmonies.

  56. They're not super common as the only place they occur in a regular major scale is on the subdominant (IV), every other interval has a perfect 4th. That said they're a fantastic choice, especial when playing in Lydian, but even when they're outside of the key they're a great source of tension that resolves really nicely since a sharp 4th is a tritone and most of functional harmony is build around resolving tritones.

  57. How then would you define this particular Viennese trichord's function? I'm asking in part because I saw what the Wikipedia article (

  58. What genre of music is this supposed to describe? It's assuming 24edo, but it's also assuming a bunch of baggage from "common practice" music theory (i.e. music composed by dead white Europeans in the last several centuries). But none of that music is in 24edo. It is all in meantone, circulating well temperaments, or 12edo - things like that. No quartertones.

  59. You want to know what I think is happening with this guy's music theory? It's filling the holes in my own theory, and thus, giving me the stylistic elements needed for me to write in the genres I intend to write.

  60. AFAIK, nobody's tried writing quartertone music with this approach. (If anybody knows of cases, let me know!) Certainly not Blackwood's 24edo etude, which I find bizarre because almost all his *other* microtonal etudes use a similar approach to this, and quite successfully.

  61. I actually intend to utilize these techniques, as well as the stuff you mentioned in your previous video in order to expand on Western Classical, and I'm currently writing a 159tet symphony that just might utilize some of this stuff, as well as the stuff you mentioned in your previous video concerning the "Dinner Party Rules".

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