News from Zarlinosuke

  1. Ehhh I don't really see a good argument for F#m.

  2. All of your arguments make sense to me on paper, but my ear is unshakingly with King Adam on this one--I've always heard it in F-sharp minor too. At least in my case, this could have to do with your fifth point, in that I'm not at all a regular listener of funk music, so I might be unaware of the traditions and hearing the musical material wrong. But be that as it may, I can't make myself hear B as the tonic. It's really interesting hearing that you hear tension in the F#m chord--to me that's the moment when it breaks out of the tension and arrives home! The fact that it's in mid-phrase doesn't really affect its tonic status at all for me--it just makes the tonic feel more fleeting and less aggressive.

  3. I listen to a lot of funk music, maybe that's a good indicator of where the difference comes from. Nile Rogers (who co-wrote "Get Lucky" and is known from Chic, Diana Ross, and his time as a studio guitarist) has written many many songs in dorian (Le Freak, Good Times, Upside Down, etc.)

  4. Makes sense, and I think that's a really interesting perceptual difference!

  5. Absolutely everything, as long as it amounts to nothing.

  6. I agree with you. We need to take into count that a modal piece still being tonal (not always obviously) and tonal music is modes. It's reciprocity. But my question was more about "how do you call any piece of music that has its tonal center in other scale that isn't the major and minor natural"?

  7. MaggaraMarine already answered better than I could have hoped to, but just very briefly, I'll add this: personally speaking, I happily go all the way by calling pieces "tonal" and referring to their "tonality" if they have a tonal centre... but it depends on my audience. I know very well that this disagrees with a lot of people's usage, and that some people will be either confused or rather upset if I do that, and sometimes I just want to get a point across in their language rather than get sidetracked arguing about terminology. So what I think is most important is to know the vast range of ways these things are talked about, and be able to adjust accordingly depending on the person and conversation being had--but then at the same time, it's also totally fine to have ideals and to advertise them when appropriate!

  8. Raising the 7 in Renaissance music was incredibly common. It's not just a concept related to tonal music.

  9. Yes, not in Phrygian, but the statement I was responding to was a general statement referring simply to 'modes'. So when referring to 'modes', the 7 was raised often, and the fact that this happened "when the modal system was on its way out" is not a reason to ignore it, but in this context, it gives even more reason to acknowledge it, given that it shows there is not such a clear-cut distinction between modal music and tonal music as we'd like to think, and at the very least not nearly enough of a distinction to prohibit "trying to apply concepts related to tonal music to modes."

  10. Oh I know, in concept that's all stuff that I agree with! I do think though it's a worthwhile distinction to note that raising the leading tone in Mixolydian, Dorian, and Aeolian was a basic and foundational practice going back to the thirteenth century, while in Phrygian you hardly see it at all until the seventeenth--in other words, that we can arguably call the leading tone in Phrygian a "tonal concept" substantially more than we can the leading tone in any other mode. That doesn't have to do at all with what's "allowed" of course, it just has to do with what sort of historical precedent different decisions have, which some people care about and some don't (but personally I can't help but to find it cool).

  11. If everyone followed the “rules” we’d still all be singing Gregorian chants in robes.

  12. And even then, only within the range of an octave at most, always clearly staying in the same mode throughout, and so on--things that a great number of chants didn't care about!

  13. *Your analogy is random and completely out of place. 'A book with words' would be closer to 'a song with notes'. That would make more sense.

  14. To be fair, the flat symbol literally originated as the letter b but in a fancy script. It and the natural sign were used to differentiate between Bb and B natural or B and H.

  15. It wasn't even originally in a fancy script, it was just very literally a b. Any sense that b and ♭ are different characters is really quite new!

  16. You’re right about C major, but wouldn’t the bVI in A minor be F major because minor keys have a bIII, bVI, and bVII by default? At least the naming convention I was taught and have seen the most defaults to major scale degrees, so the bVI is always F major whether the key is A major, minor, or any other key with the root A.

  17. Yes, you're right. The issue is that a lot of us (like me and

  18. It's not like the ai in "eye", that is an anglicism. Its like saying the a in "father" and the e in "bed" really quickly in succession, without changing syllables. Not quite but close enough. Is your native language English? Because if not, I could come up with a better example.

  19. Yeah, it's the one in father. Sorry, English is not my first language and I sometimes confuse.

  20. That just often tends to be how it is when a musician gets one or two big hits--their other stuff gets neglected. Beethoven was mad about how the moonlight sonata's popularity made some of his other piano sonatas get neglected too, in much the same way. Large groups of people don't tend to be good at keeping large numbers of pieces in their collective head!

  21. I would say it's true if Holst had borrowed a prominent melody from Mozart's symphony. Besides, Mozart didn't name his Symphony Jupiter, it was named that by someone else, after his death.

  22. Oh that's awesome! I especially love how the Latin versions are both about war while the Italian ones are both kind of cutely innocuous.

  23. I'm no expert, but as you said, that G#/Ab is the only note "out of place," and there is a specific reason it works. When I see the key of C maj, I like to think of the key of A min as well. Being relative keys, they contain the same notes. the G# in A minor would obviously function like a major 7th (as opposed to G, which would be a minor 7th from A). so in A minor, using G# gives a harmonic minor sound.

  24. I can see where you're going with this, but the A-flat in C major really has nothing to do with the G-sharp in A minor, as it turns out--they act very differently, and it's really just a coincidence that they happen to occupy the same piano key!

  25. yeah, I've been thinking about it since I posted and you're right. in C major the Ab functions as a flat6 and has a totally different quality and "function" than the G# in A minor. pretty interesting.

  26. Don't see why it could be a mistake! They're both good books, and you can read Brocktree later.

  27. which badger lord do you think is the best? Urthstripe is pretty interesting and I like his dynamic with his hares and I find his frustration with Mara relatable since I’m a father as well.

  28. I have yes, and I like Urthstripe, but my favourite badger lords are probably Sunflash and Cregga. Oh and I like Stonepaw too, just because he's so old and so long ago!

  29. My experience is that dry recaps of the day end up being a lot more interesting in the future than you may expect--all sorts of unconscious assumptions and evidence of what your life and mind were like end up working their way in there, especially if you're not actively trying to exclude mentioning how you feel or anything like that. What I do is basically just write about my day, and if I have feelings to discuss or something to go into more detail about, I do. But if I don't, I don't force it. That way whatever comes out is always pretty true to whoever I was at the moment I was writing.

  30. Because being "in minor" already implies the fluid mixing of all three minor scales, which is why it's not very helpful to think of them as three different scales. You could choose, if you wanted to, to write music that sticks fully and strictly to one of these scales, but it would be an artificial exercise with no tradition behind it. There's nothing wrong with that in an absolute sense, but you won't encounter it by far most other music, which is why this doesn't tend to be the way these scales are talked about.

  31. Well, with Flight of the Bumblebee, you can look at the chords accompanying the very-chromatic melody, focusing on the very beginning and the very end. The first two chords are E major and A minor, while the last chord is A minor--so just from that alone, you pretty much know for certain that it's in A minor. But a "very chromatic piece" could also be atonal, or it could be tonal-ish but not governed in any long-term sense by a single key, so you really have to take it case by case. Seeing if the beginning and ending harmonically align with each other is always a good first step though.

  32. I never thought about that. Well then I'm lucky to be Italian and know these terms without needing to translate them.

  33. vii° as a substitute for V definitely, but for ii I wouldn't say it tends to do that so much--the presence of the leading tone in vii° is a pretty huge difference. (In your second progression, the one in A minor, it's a ii° substituting for a iv in minor, which is a rather different thing from a vii° substituting for a ii in major.)

  34. Maybe the other 3 voices?

  35. They tend to just be your standard plagal moves... 4 to 3, 1 to 1, and maybe 2 to 3.

  36. I just discovered an example of this progression just this week: Bob Dylan's "Be My Baby Tonight"

  37. Nice! My go-to examples are usually Beatles songs like "Eight Days a Week" and "Yesterday."

  38. Really glad to have been able to have been of some help to you with this, it can definitely take some time to understand (and I'm not at all trying to pretend I fully do either!).

  39. That's like my favorite aria out of all of Mozart's operas I've heard so far. I even got the idea of writing a set of variations on it soon after listening to The Marriage of Figaro in full.

  40. I can totally understand the impulse, it's such an inspiring banger!

  41. Don't think of it as a bunch of different things to memorize; just know that the 3rd can be either major or minor and the 7 can be either major or minor. It's just the different combinations of those possibilities that give you the different 7 chords.

  42. And let's not forget that the fifth can be either perfect or diminished too! and the seventh also diminished, in the latter case sometimes.

  43. I’m 100% penciling that in either way.

  44. I would too! and I'd call that simply bad printing practice by whoever notated the music, because whether a B-flat or a B-natural is intended, it should be explicitly written.

Leave a Reply

Your email address will not be published. Required fields are marked *

You may have missed