ZiggyD's problems with Archnemesis "So much of it is... Anti-fun" - Clip from latest Baeclast

  1. that moment when you get grasping vined, deli hands, temp chains, chilled, maimed, encased in ice, hindered, slowed, tarred, corruption of the awakener, debilitated, explosive retched, bear trapped, cold beamed, ethereal tendriled, sprouting madness, slaver net, pinned, crystalized fear, stunned, arc trapped, doedre's suffering, frozen, paralyzing touched, coated in azurite, covered in ash, maraketh lassoed, toxic vined, spider webbed, temporal bubbled, quicksand, purple effluent, void pit, gravity well, gruthkul's despair, smothering mist, oppressed, ice prisoned, malignant madness, boiling blood, thorned vined, tidal waved, petrified, screeched, and imdeunrightclickinationated by belowzeroambienttemperatureification

  2. The worst part is entire packs of blue enemies do this garbage. It's so fun having 10 enemies instantly teleport on top of you with a character built to stay at range, 100% no way to counter it at all. Multiple enemies with ice prison/magma garbage? Beyond unfun. It's just an endless stream of nonsense running after you and impeding your movement.

  3. Yeah and bosses don't just get specific slows...no, now every random rare can slow you in ways that aren't manageable. Also you're forgetting about chill, webs, hands, and of course temp bubble

  4. You didn't even mention the 30 slows every map that there is not why to counter except Jug. There should be like 5 slows in the game and there should be a way to fight against them with gear IMO.

  5. Yeah I don't really understand why there's so many mechanically different ways to be snared or hindered in some broad manner, and also different ways to mitigate them but then coming up with yet more ways for monsters to beat that mitigation. It feels like a pointless arms race that GGG is setting up against itself. What's the vision here? The goal? Why can't they just be mechanically the same?

  6. This Baeclast is the first time I've ever seen Ziggy sorta go off on a rant. Now that's saying something.

  7. I'm glad he's willing to speak up. You can tell when he quits a league 2 weeks in and plays something else that the game is wearing him thin, and this was before 3.18. I know he's getting older and wants to play other things, but if the game were engaging enough he'd find the time for it. Him and Kripp got me into it almost 10 years ago now.

  8. Ziggy was super negative on Archnem for the entire episode essentially. You know it's bad when your primary Community-Side cheerleader (to the point that he sits opposite Chris every announcement) is the one negative about your changes.

  9. Another jarring comment for me was ZiggyD saying he was specing out of Delirium b/c arch nem ruins it for him.

  10. And at min 54 he says "everything is archnemesis" it doesnt matter what you run we are playing path of archnemesis.

  11. For me the game is being hard carried by the Atlas and newer content right now... Like I don't think everything the mod changes brings is bad, but it was clearly not balance tested.

  12. As someone who's been away from the game for a year now, it's really disappointing to see commentary like this practically every league. Why is one of the longest existence complaints about getting killed by stuff that's impossible to see or react to still a thing? It's never been fun but they keep adding more. What's the point?

  13. A buddy and I have had this same conversation today. The Atlas is in the best spot ever, but the rest of the game is so assed it is not fun anymore. My group went from 7-8 people on regularly for the first month (for the last 4-5 years) of PoE down to 3 currently. 1 of those is a guy I have played PoE with for almost 10 years now, and I am sure he is a day or two away from dropping PoE. Not just the league but the game as a whole. The Mana, Flask changes, 3.15 (?) nerfs, AN right now and other stuff is just stacking.

  14. Yeah I agree 100%. Last league was a great example of this and it was the most fun I’ve had in POE in a while. Add sentinel and recombos and it’s 10/10 imo. It’s wild how much they fucked it up by hamfisting these shitty mobs

  15. The thing for me is it feels like Archnem is just dragging down all the good Atlas stuff. So many league mechanics just feel so much harder and shittier than before the change, and its making it feel like specing into content I enjoy (like Blight and Meta) is no longer any good because Blight is a shitshow with rares and magic monsters being so much harder to kill without tower damage scaling up to their much higher toughness, and Metas are just silly even without specing into the extra 150% life notable.

  16. It kinda makes the game feel like those "only eat the bigger fish" games, like where you start as a guppy and end up a planet killer but only if no slightly bigger fish ever actually crossed hitboxes with you. That's PoE but instead of "slightly bigger fish" it's "rares with 4+ archnemesis mods"

  17. Literally all they need to do is make those enemies drop something worthwile. PoE is designed around mulching as many enemies as fast as you can, not taking three minutes trying to kill a rare stronger than most bosses. They drop peanuts

  18. This was truly surprising to me how down on the game Ziggy was, he is typically a very glass half full guy so I expected him to have a few nice things to say about it.

  19. They had the game now two times in an absolute great state (3.13 & 3.17) just to multislap it the next league. I really don't get it. Is there an angel and a devil in GGG fighting each other?

  20. I think Ziz phrased it really well when Expedition came out. He said it felt like there were multiple teams within GGG that are all working on different things and no one communicates with each other or pulls the changes together. He used the example of player power being too high, so they nerfed support gems, and flasks, and movement skills, and mana costs. Each of those changes on their own might have felt okay, but together they felt absolutely dreadful.

  21. Because they desperately want to back to how if was in 2012. Slow, no zooming around. Sure, nothing wrong with that, I would have preferred that , seeing that I was a closed beta supporter .

  22. in my view they are testing the waters for poe2, pushing the playerbase at avery new league to see what we love and hate, in other words...We are beta testing poe2.

  23. The absolute great state is what players want (including me), and it's the opposite of GGG wants. They are so sold on their "vision" that they'll ignore/gut what players want just for the sake of what they want.

  24. I used to think I was a fairly hardcore gamer, but I've decided I'm just way too casual anymore to have fun with PoE. It really does seem like you have to devote your life to the game to keep up with everything and to figure out how to fix your build on the mechanics that kill you so quick that you don't know why you died.

  25. This is why I dropped the game again after coming back for 3.17, it just isn't enjoyable anymore. I've stuck around here on the off chance GGG realizes what they've done but the PoE of 3.18 feels fundamentally different to the PoE of 3.7, or 3.10, and it's not in a good way (outside of the removal of shaper/elder fuckery)

  26. It is even worst if u pick a non meta build, i was playing a frost blades raider i knew it was garbage but oh god even after grinding some decent gear it still felt like trash. I had a lot of regrets so before quitting the league i decided to prove a cold conversion seismic trap build in the same character, didnt expect it to feel 100 times better. I was actually enjoying it for some hours but i know it wont feel the same later, and i dont wanna level a sabo to fully enjoy it. I am just done with this league.

  27. Same. Came back for the atlas rework last league and played it for a bit (three lvl 97+) but got so sick of the anti-fun bullshit and tedium that I fully skipped this league and won't be back until they do another massive update.

  28. The mod rework doesn't achieve the stated objective of being easily identifiable or making combat more engaging.

  29. They need to release hardmode and look at the numbers that no one besides 5 streamers and 20 other people will play that shit.

  30. They don't care about popularity (until revenue dips 30% and they realize they'll have to lay people off/cut POE2's budget if it keeps up).

  31. The game hasn’t changed much since last least which many would argue is the best the game has ever been. I think the problem now with Archnem in particular is that the game feels too oppressive all the time, instead of Chris idea that POE is best when you’re mostly chilling but once in a while an enemy makes you get up from your chair a bit more and pay attention. Now it just feels like you constantly need to be on your toes and it’s exhausting. The game is still insanely fast (many would prob say too fast)

  32. As a player that only joined in ultimatum I feel they are more recognizable than the previous mods and have more of an impact on combat. Fighting mobs is just a bit more interesting now. On death effects on the other hand... I just want to grab my loot/interact with a mechanic after killing a pack, not wait around for 5 seconds so it's safe to approach.

  33. So much fucking ground degen and etc. bullshit, I'm playing LS so I'm pretty much melee. The mods are WAY too much for existing past-league content too. I gave up.

  34. I am also playing LS and have leveled to 96 in maps purely. Its harder than before but its not that hard.

  35. Same, every league they add more and more ground degens i cannot even pick up the loot or read the altras downsides beacause there's plenty of degens and other trash cast on death bullshit by mobs. Also the degen that insta kills you when using whirling baldes i love it, i love this game i really hope GGG adds more degens, i want a chest that spawns all kinds of degens under me so i can feel the pain also in my HO

  36. Couldn't agree more. Not to mention the need to be running Determination, Grace, Defiance banner, block and suppression on every single build now or you risk just being deleted. Building defence is good and should be invested in but there doesn't seem to be any options anymore, it's just try and find a way to get everything into your build. It just becomes the same homogenised build every time.

  37. Doing Rues Cf Champ. 39k armor, capped res and 77% lightning, 5.6k life sadly not much block suppression investment and God do I feel it. It's pretty much do t get touched by anything rn.

  38. As soon as they didn’t dial back defenses after the buff patch I knew they would just retune monsters to make the improved defenses mandatory.

  39. You know, I love POE. I do. When POE is good, it’s the best game out there in my opinion. It’s probably my favorite game ever overall. I just really wish GGG would stop pulling the rug out from under us. Like, we always seem to get to a point where the game is an absolute blast, everyone’s having a ton of fun, we get leagues like Ritual, Archnemesis, etc. where pretty much everyone agrees that the balance of the game is just about right, things are rewarding, build diversity is good. Then some streamer beats the new uber boss in 3 days and GGG just nukes everything from orbit.

  40. Tbh enjoyed 3.17 but wouldn't say game was in a good spot. Build diversity sucked from the expedition nerfs before.

  41. Yes Ultimatum is also going to be implemented next league. It might be slightly delayed because of all the testing going on rn.

  42. I mean was the trajectory GGG going in really mysterious? Haven't we had this conversation since 2 years ago if not longer?

  43. I find the random post kill bullshit to be a bit much. No reason i should have to keep moving 10s after kill to avoid nonsense every single pack.

  44. The mod rework has failed, but as demonstrated by the failed fortify rework, GGG is extremely unlikely to go back on such a big change. Great example of implementing a solution that was in search of a problem.

  45. IMO There was a real problem in that multiple of the same extremely common rare mods being in close range proximity of each other being too exponentially strong (See when heist, ultimatum, etc was released), but when they're just the only rares in their pack or something they're usually not that scary if at all.

  46. They do this all the time. Mana changes were a failure because now life tap is mandatory for half your link setups. But they won’t budge.

  47. it really needs to be said, the fortify rework is one of the worst things they've ever done to melee. And this is saying something, because GGG really knows how make bad melee design choices.

  48. Literally none of the 1% streamers seem to like AN currently. Not Ziz, Raiz, Mathil, Ziggy, TyTy, anyone.

  49. You know the Arch Nemesis implementation is fucked when its got to the point you're actively avoiding/blocking content because it contaminates everything in the game with no agency on the type of modifiers/combat you will engage with and better yet, sans loot that made AN in 3.17 somewhat worth doing.

  50. can we talk about infinite ammount of slows that are magnifying your ability to not play the game.... they like to see us suffer but anti fun mechanics that are now what 16 different slows in the game WE HAVE HAD ENOUGH!

  51. Remember when Chris said, to justify the 3.15 nerfs, that buffing monsters was not the way to go to add challenge? Yeah, well, GGG made exactly that. True, the skills weren't nerfed, but a lot of builds are now unplayable because of all the Archnem mods.

  52. By the way I thought more "hotfixes" were coming, but the last one was 6 days ago. Is GGG already done with 3.18? What about fixing delve? Blight? HH?

  53. They are not going to fix anything. This is how they are envisioning this game to be truly be. They want all them dumb casuals to leave their game forever, and attract your niche "true gamer" who will keep their their game philosophy alive.

  54. They're done with this patch just like they were done with Scourge. They backed themselves into a shitcorner and they either don't know how or are too stubborn to fix it. Cya in 3.19.

  55. Lots of got points on the baeclast. Ziggy hit it on the head with the changes are "anti-fun". The best solution was posed by RaizQT who suggested that the fix for things feeling unique was to make an Arch-Rogue Exile that roam in groups.

  56. The fix is to simply remove them from the game. By talking about replacing them with some other mechanic you are already conceding that something needed to be 'fixed'. And that just isn't the case.

  57. This episode has made me decide to skip the league until GGG sorts its shit out (if it ever does). It's hard to tell from reddit how legitimate the complaints are but if everyone on this show agrees at minimum there's at least some work to be done and it's a lot less fun at most, my time is better spent doing other things.

  58. If you don't want to rely on the feedback of community/streamers, you can actually boot it up and experience it yourself. Unsure what the state is after few patches but the rippy spike was apparent at act 1 itself. Stuffs like steel infused/ailment boosting rares were rippy because there's close to 0 defensive immunities available at such low levels. Chain stunned/freezed/strong ignites/shock was the experience and if you've played the game enough, you would know there's only so much you can mitigate that early. If you play HC, you basically just log out ASAP and in SC, it's getting battered. I actually die less and less upon reaching maps purely due to better balance of defence vs dps from itemization

  59. In the next Wraeclast with Chris, I wonder how many times he will mention "communication problem / issue / challenge" - it is his frequent method for not actually identifying root cause of issues.

  60. Anti-fun is pretty accurate, I don't mind the expanding checklist as long as I have adequate tools to get them while having damage. But the insane regenerating monster with huge hp pool is a bit too much.

  61. I thought Ziggy will dillute the conversation since he was GGG fav,at least for league launch,but instead he speak the facts,my respect goes to him

  62. Played since the closed, invite-only beta. Hundreds of different builds and thousands of hours. 3.18 killed the game for me. All these new mods are just so fucking tedious to deal with.

  63. Yeah same. Admittedly I’m playing SSF, but even on a build as meta as seismic trap it’s just fucking tedious.

  64. This is my exact issue. The number of builds that exist are so few. And those that exist use the same mechanics. I miss self-cast non-crit builds.

  65. Open beta and the same. I want to play POE but I don't want to slog through this mire for no fun and no decent reason...

  66. The game basically needs the equivalent of the double dipping patch in my opinion. So many convoluted mechanics of scaling danger were introduced over time that it's just completely impossible to balance them on their own:

  67. There have been leagues in the past that I disliked, but this is the first time I’ve actually disliked the base game. I’m no longer having fun running maps… shit sucks, I really hope next league brings the enjoyment back for me.

  68. It was really surprising to see ziggy rant like that considering he's usually positive no matter what GGG does.

  69. It's what I've been saying ince its conception. GGG should just stop patching the broken mess, return to the old system and put all the manpower into making next league mechanic good. No matter how many nerfs Archnemesis gets(and most of AN rares are pushovers already) it will never mesh well with all other mechanics in game.

  70. I'm just getting mad at GGG at this point. For years I enjoyed POE and generally approved of the directions they took the game. I bought supporter pack after supporter pack, literally have dumped thousands of dollars on this game. But behind it all Chris Wilson got a bug up his arse that the game POE had become isn't the super hard slow game he originally wanted it to be.....

  71. Good lord if this isn’t a copy pasta please log off. Constantly making you unhappy and angry? Life is too short. There are lots of good games out there and tbh this isn’t really one of them.

  72. Agree on everything, they just changed from a normal game to what I call asshole-development. When every reason is because fuck you and gotcha, is just that.

  73. And another special kind of asshole will tell you to then play permanent mode (like standard). But doing so you miss on League exclusive content that may not appear or after a long time (like ultimatum) or missing out on exclusive MTX (league challenge rewards and now KIRAC PASS tied to the temp league). The FOMO is holding some of those people in the temp leagues (but also valid reasons like a fresh economy).

  74. Once I heard it wouldn't be a stand alone I knew it would be bad. They are going to try and marry new tech, philosophy and gameplay with 15 year old systems. There's so much pain in those changes. Imagine if blizz treated D3 as an expansion of D2. Not only would D2 be fucking mangled to make it work but D3 would have been dragged down to D2's level just to make it work.

  75. I really don't think this gets brought up enough. Since they have said that POE now is a testing friend for POE 2, I view every league through a filter of where POE 2 is heading. I will admit that I don't know everything that's going to be in it, but what I've seen with archenemies it's worrisome that POE 2 is just going to be more of the same.

  76. It feels like the changes that are being made to the game the past year or two are just exacerbating the problems with the core game. It really does seem like defenses in the game don’t matter cause no matter how hard you try you’re still going to pop like a balloon to the most random shit. Just makes you feel like you’re wasting your time. When Chris was asked about how shitty the changes felt back in expedition league, or maybe it was scourge, he completely dodged the question and distracted the hosts of the podcast with “hard mode” which really seems like it was made up on the spot lol

  77. The main thing that confuses me is who were these changes for? The old mod system wasn't great, but I didn't really hear many people calling for an overhaul outside of the occasional complaint about aura stacking being silly.

  78. The game has become maple story. Just endless grinding on one of 5 meta builds. Everything else is unplayable. The game isn't even harder, it's just more grindy and time consuming for no extra benefit to the player.

  79. But but if you throw 5 mirrors into a character any build is viable. Just farm on DD Necro till you can get them. /s

  80. Good summary, however maple story has much, much, much better UI/UX and is way more user friendly.

  81. Looking at how GGG tries so hard to introduce a counter to every build and mechanic possible, I'm genuinely surprised that they didn't add mods like "immune to sword attacks", "immune to tornado shot", "immune to skills linked with more than 3 support gems", "can only be damaged by your secondary weapon", "deals quantuple damage to marauders", and so on...

  82. For the longevity of this game I truly hope they realise that archnemsis mods must be scrapped and they need to start over. They tried and failed, time to fix.

  83. In general thats how i feel. Like I'm only played so much last week because i took time off from work. The game feels less fun and my play time is near zero per day already.

  84. Same. I tried two times today... Did 2x2 maps and... Magic is gone, why strugling with my 4 yo build which did every content (but no deli 30)

  85. Ziggy has always given criticism to GGG, he just doesn't make frothing-at-the-mouth hot takes for YouTube clout.

  86. The archnemesis mods were not tested enough and are a bad change to the game. I wish they would change back to the old mods but you only see archnemesis mobs rarely in maps, like once or twice per map, and they should drop better loot because of their difficulty.

  87. I actually like rares and magic mobs being tougher. That said the immunities and certain build countering mods along with game breaking ones (like Assassins in Blight teleporting to you off of their lanes) are too much. Especially considering they don't drop anything worth the work of defeating them, assuming your once viable build even can now.

  88. That I think is a big problem with a lot of the current design. They aren't putting "fun" as a critical part of the design. I can wipe for hours in a MMO raid because it's fun to play the content. I play PoE for 5 minutes and I can already feel the frustration mounting.

  89. Yeah I was hyped for the league and after a few hundred deaths just said fuck it and played something else.

  90. I'm usually pretty much on board with GGG for patches, I even thought Expedition was fine (minus the flask/ailment changes) but I don't think there was ever a point of time I was so unhappy with a change like the implementation of Archnemesis. A lot of those issues should've never made it to live, issues that could've been solved with a feedback thread and input from users. Don't listen to everything the players say, do your thing. But doing your thing despite (our) warnings and packpaddling with hotfixes certainly doesn't look good.

  91. At least last league Trickster is an opt in thing. Now it's mandatory, or skip the mob altogether which is the most lame and boring thing to do in a game.

  92. Mud Flats is the hardest area in the game right now... You have no flasks or resists, and then random Rhoas can give each other buffs so they can come flying off screen and one shot you.

  93. I don’t know if this comes up but hasn’t nugi streamed like 12 hours of PoE total for the last two leagues?

  94. I really think it's time for GGG as a studio to sit down and have a chat about where the breakdown in communication is between them and their playerbase. Why is what they find "fun" and good game balance totally miserable to so many players? That doesn't make sense. When it's a couple of people, it's probably not a problem. When it's a huge number of players, it's the studio that's wrong.

  95. I personally can't stand all the fucking immobilization bullshit from mobs. I am sad i missed last league and now I get back to this bullshit.

  96. All these stupid slowing conditions reminds me of the design of GW2, where literally every enemy spell has a condition attached to it : stun, slow, knowback, knowdown and so on. All this shit is anti fun.

  97. I hope GGG realize how build limiting this current version of the game is, the forced difficulty in map make the average build that lagged behind before this patch now borderline unplayable with sentinel.

  98. Back when the game first came out everyone just got lightning strike, blood rage and smacked the monkeys around in riverways. Shit was dope.

  99. Yeah rare are annoying to kill but what is killing is the fucking degen where my health melt in a blink of an eye and I have hard time to react... I mean at this point just simply one shot me, wont make much of a difference lmao.

  100. I'll be laughing my ass off if Ziggy won't be invited to host a talk with CW on next league start :P

  101. Man, I'm not usually a fan of Baeclast, but this whole episode is spot on. I agree with like 90% of the takes on archnemesis here, and I think it really behooves GGG to pay attention for the health of their game.

  102. It's like a perpetual arms race: Monsters get more shit like this to slow us down, so we need to get more immunities, so GGG needs to add more on-death effects that we need even more immunities for and need to play around that super interrupt mapping (degen grounds are THE WORST) and just make clearing shit kind a pain.

  103. I was somewhere between simu 26-30 consistently with the exact same build, pretty equal gear level.

  104. My balls used to sweat lots for you GGG, but now I have no desire to continue this game. I’ll be taking my leave and I’m bringing my balls with me. Thanks for everything up until now.

  105. The ability vomit from the new mods is a bit silly. Having a stream of green orbs fly across the screen or the constant flux of magma orbs or mirages from their respective enemies gets pretty annoying. It sort of reminds me of fighting games when you run into that one guy that sits back and spams his projectile. It isn't hard to deal with but it gets old real fast.

  106. I thought exactly the same thing when I watched this clip. You can even see some of them feeling a little uncomfortable talking about some of these low points as if GGG is gonna pull their "benefits"

  107. I am not very good at PoE, but it's just plain tiring at this point to play it for exactly the reasons Ziggy is mentioning. Everything is without meaning and then community-wise, we are in the constant loop of GGG releases something new and fucked up > we bitch > casters bitch > GGG says "we heard you loud and clear" > fixes some of the problems > cycle repeats.

  108. If you watch more the diablo3 comment was so good. In diablo 3 you weren't fighting against monsters, you were just fighting against mechanic combo's. Everything was always the exact same. Either spooky lightening balls, or fire pillars, or whateverthefuck stupid scenario they could create.

  109. Maybe they will see this and think something about it, But it doesnt seem that way right now. Where are the Devs? Do they want my money or not? I still think the game is fun and some of them are clearly identifiable but this patch has been a huge mess. I play everyday still. Then they just go completely silent. POE 2 WILL SAVE EVERYTHING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  110. I have no idea what "ZiggyD" is talking about. I play this game 18 hours a day, run the most meta build, ignore 90% of mechanics in the game and take 20 minutes to clear a map and do not see the issue with Archnemesis modifiers. If you are struggling, you are just shit at the game and should just quit. I really can't relate to anyone who dislikes this league, least of all veteran players who should have literally zero issues with any of the content.

  111. This is the opinion I gave in global as well (just to be laughed on by the elitists), all the content in 3.18 is really amazing, however AN going core completely ruined it all, gatekeept majority of the content (Delirium, Blight, Metamorph, Bestiary, possibly Expedition and so on) and using sentinels is very often a gamble of death if they'll accidentally buff the wrong mobs. After 8h shift, all I want at home is to chill, however it's not possible with PoE anymore as it became straight away frustrating. This is the reason why I decided to go with 20/40 this league and then just ditch the PoE till the next season, unless the AN stays.

  112. I would be fine with crazy hard monsters that take forever to kill if those crazy hard monsters had loot explosions that were worthwhile. They do not.

  113. the fact that you need to build at least 3 kinds of defences in hc if you want to get to red maps (or bosses) means a lot:

  114. Rolling undoable mods on maps aren't fun either. It's a completely unnecessary layer of tediousness.

  115. For me its not even just archnemesis , the current game for me feels not fun to play , the league is very shallow with no content

  116. The best feeling in the game is to slam down a juiced scary pack only to die in some triple stacked degen that spawned on some delay because you finally got excited about ground loot drops.

  117. I didnt do a single archnemisis mob last thing as it was awful, but the atlas kept me going, now? Every mob is Archnemesis.

  118. How could we not love those comments, with a good constructive criticism and no cursing/sweering about something new in the game in the core buildet. And the empathy what we give to devs to trying something new and quite risky. Damn, others forums should learn something from us, how do we help poe devs with patients and alot of good ideea to improve the game.

  119. Dunno, for me it is fun having to dodge shit like the toxic volatiles, but definetly mechanics that slow with no counter (or any type really) are no fun, because our mov skills are not effective against those mechanics.

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