Should Transgender Athletes be Allowed to Compete with Cisgender Athletes

  1. I have nothing but support for male to female individuals, but the sacrifices that are needed to make that transition must extend to sacrificing the ability to compete with women. At least until the science is studied more thoroughly.

  2. Interestingly the study showed that two years of gender-affirming hormones eliminated most or all of the differences between cis and trans athletes, which runs contrary to what most people on Reddit seem to believe.

  3. "Summary The 15–31% athletic advantage that transwomen displayed over their female counterparts prior to starting gender affirming hormones declined with feminising therapy. However, transwomen still had a 9% faster mean run speed after the 1 year period of testosterone suppression that is recommended by World Athletics for inclusion in women’s events."

  4. I don’t have time to read it at the moment, but does the study address advantages gained during puberty such as bone density, muscular-skeletal structure, volumetric lung capacity, etc? Advantages that do not decline quickly by just suppression of testosterone?

  5. I'm curious what the median run speed is. I always have a doubt when I see mean used in any space that has the potential for outliers.

  6. Even 9% is a pretty big advantage in sports. What’s the advantage from PEDs? If it’s comparable and PEDs are banned then that’s pretty clear.

  7. So many people hear just stating their opinion as fact without even reading the study. Crazy how almost all of reddit has rushed to judgment on trans athletes without examining the data.

  8. Thread should just be deleted tbh. Not a single conversation happening here that couldn't be had on some shifty politics sub. Nothing to do with the study or the original study.

  9. Silly title. No-one has a problem with MTF competing with cis male athletes, or with FTM competing with cis male athletes. The only issue of substance is MTF trans athletes competing with female cis athletes.

  10. Yes there has been problems with FTM competing with cis women. Mack Beggs is a trans man who is forced to play against cis women and has won two State Wrestling Championships in Texas in a row. In 2017 he has a record of 57-0 and 2018 he has a record of 32-0. I'm not sure if he has a record after that but still A perfect record two years in a row can definitely show it as unfair I think.

  11. This isn't original research but an article from a student paper covering a study done 2 years ago. Subreddit rules state research must be <6 months old.

  12. Not in women's athletics. The womens and men's seperation is based on differences in biology not gender identification. We already generally allow biological women to participate in men's athletics if they can, so transgendered athletes can do the same. The damage caused by allowing biological men to dominate women's athletics far outweighs any potential gain. Protect women's sports.

  13. What's there to protect? Transwomen are not winning competitions or breaking records in droves. Winning a competition or placing 1st here and there is not a sign that Women Sports are in trouble.

  14. These "biological men" and "biological women" phrases are inaccurate and misleading, they shouldn't really be used. We should favor more specific, exact and respectful terminology.

  15. No, otherwise in this case we should completely remove gender in competitions to be fair, women and men competiting against each other without any distinction.

  16. If female pro sports became more lucrative, and I don't know why it's not, it's tougher question. I think women have more avenues to make money off of media, but should they have to if already working in sports is other question. A lot of cisgender women want to win at sports, and I think there's probably disadvantage physically, but does the sport benefit economically from inclusion is a consideration. It seems like a cisgender women consensus should decide the matter though, and if that's discrimination, then you have to allow steroids in women's sports. Not sure that's healthy.

  17. Sure, assuming they compete with those of the same biological beginnings. 6’4” with all the advantages of a male athlete competing against 5’7” women is a fairness issue. Why is it ok for women’s sport to take the hit on this area when men’s sport is right there and ready to compete? Picking on the weak kid on the playground, is what I see.

  18. Why do we let tall men compete with short men in basketball? Some people have natural advantages and that's ok

  19. Absolutely not! They’re robbing these women of all their hard work! Thompson was ranked in The 400’s in men’s decision and is breaking world records in the women’s division!

  20. If science says they are women then they have to compete with women. I don't see what is so hard about this. They're either women, scientifically speaking, or they're not.

  21. How would that work? Separating people out probably wont work as I don't believe there are enough transgender people who are also into athletics to fill a category.

  22. I agree with this. Also, most "men's" sports/leagues are actually open to either gender. There just aren't women capable of competing at that level. Then have a league for only XX, no MTF. And then a trans league. Let's see if XX pumped full of testosterone can beat/compete with XY pumped full of estrogen.

  23. No. There may be too little of them to make their own category but unless you've been taking T or E before puberty started, it would be unfair.

  24. Do you think we should measure women's testosterone levels to determine who should be allowed to compete?

  25. a 5'6" 150 lb man will have a SIGNIFICANT biological unfair advantage over a 5'6" 150lb woman.... why are you just flat out ignoring science and the reason we have protected classes (woman's divisions) in sports. All of this is just so anti feminist.

  26. They already are allowed. Most of the top leagues are open to anyone of any gender. The NFL and NBA both allow anyone of any gender to play.

  27. These are ridiculous. Are we expected to force a single rule on all sports? Let each sport and league decide for themselves what the criteria are.

  28. I think my issue is, multiple studies have been done where after 1-3 years of strict hormone therapy that advantages practically disappeared. Even in the original study the only difference was in speed. We never seem to have problems with trans women as athletes until they win something. They are only allowed to compete if they lose.

  29. Base it on genes and then there is no discrimination. XX or XY has nothing to do with gender preference, its simply your genetic makeup that will predispose you to a certain body type and level of innate musculature. Whether youre a woman/man isnt included in that definition.

  30. This was the approach that athletics took for a few decades. That's how a bunch of female athletes discovered they had a Y chromosome and didn't know it. They were disqualified from competing as women, despite having been born with vaginas and gone through female puberty.

  31. I don't think you understand that these people don't care about science. It's all just Identity politics to push an agenda.

  32. Well you know that there is a lot of exceptions. Even in cis people. Not everyone has a xx or xy. So what you gonna do about that

  33. Just as a reminder, trans people have been competing for decades without issue unless you consider any trans person ever winning a competition an issue.

  34. Should we focus more on weight class than gender perhaps?Sure, it doesn't negate the issues entirely, but it could be an equalizing factor. Just a thought.

  35. It's odd that we've grown to focus so much on gender separation in all sports, when in reality, there are HUGE discrepancies between people in the same gender.

  36. i think weight could be incomplete information on the athlete in question. bone/muscle density is a product of puberty, which i think has much more of an impact on potential performance. but really, it also gets into actual skill and length of training. not every trans woman (who spent puberty as a male) has an advantage if they're not as 'good' at the sport.

  37. The real answer is to get rid of weight classes and gender divisions entirely. Institute an ELO-type system for every sport, meaning competitors are ranked based on their performance against other competitors. Perform well? Go up in ranking. Perform poorly? Go down in ranking.

  38. I agree, we're already allowing people with insane "biological" advantages to compete with things like height advantages, weight advantages, and general genetics that allow them to dominate in certain sports. The small regionals where a trans woman wins gets all the headlines but it's still incredibly uncommon.

  39. A 150 pound guy would destroy a 150 woman. Same for 135 lbs or 175 lbs. Stop trying to change the rules to benefit a fraction of a percent of people. Can’t get over how stupid people get over this topic.

  40. getting tired of these …..”should 2% of the population have an issue with 3% of the population “ problems. Meanwhile the other 95% of us , who dont care or have our own personal problems that go unidentified, are inundated with these stories….daily. When are we going to focus on the larger problems that affect us all. What a constant waste of energy & resources.

  41. What are you on about? Sports is a big deal of course there's going to studies on sports. What do you expect?

  42. cis is the literal verse of trans. 'Cis' is from the latin word for 'here' and 'trans' for the latin word for 'over there'.

  43. In nearly all philosophical conceptions of morality, attempting to rectify unfairness or injustice by creating more injustice is morally bereft. There are injustices we can control and those we cannot. We cannot control being born a gender that a person doesn't feel like they belong to. We can accommodate their change to their preferred gender easily in most of society. However, we can't currently control the biological superiority that these individuals can thus possess compared to their gendered peers. By forcing those who are unable to biologically compete into competing with these new peers, we are manufacturing an additional instance of injustice to try and rectify the first injustice. This is inherently morally bereft.

  44. So, I assume that those who are against allowing a trans-athlete transitioning after puberty to participate in the desired sport and division, would be on board for allowing a parent and child to make the decision to use pubertal blockers and then also hormone treatements to allow a child to acheive their desired gender, correct? Or are you just pushing an agenda cause you think those people are icky and shouldn't be represented in society?

  45. People dedicate their lives to playing a particular sport because it’s what they’re passionate about. Try telling them it’s “not that serious”

  46. This is a very simple question. The proper answer is that the owner of any given organization gets to make that decision. If you disagree with the answer, you are free to create your own sports organization.

  47. The state does not exist as a abstract concept. The description of the function of the state is an abstract concept, but the state itself exists as a collection of individual human beings assuming certain roles. These human beings are NOT abstract concepts, with the exception of Dave from accounting.

  48. No because no matter what length of time has passed no one will accept the results if a transgender woman wins a competition. Like if someone is a drugs cheat and is back in competition and wins, there will always be a doubt that there was an unfair advantage.

  49. I cannot believe this is even a question. It is absolutely nuts for a man to compete as a woman and people to think there is no advantage to the male. So 9% is ok? Stupid.

  50. Most leagues already require some form of hrt or therapy so you can't just switch at any moment and compete in the women's league immediately.

  51. No. This comes down to a matter of individual freedom. The classes are broken down by gender to test the physical limits of contestants biologically in that class. Someone born into a different class can not be intellectualized into another class. Each contestant has a right to know that they are facing an opponent that was born in the same class. Transgender began with an advantage. Performance drugs to raise testosterone for an advantage or hormone drugs to reduce an advantage are both engineered ways of fixing the contestant's performance results.

  52. Yes there should be no divisions. Only one giant competition diversity is what makes things interesting. We should also allow for drug performance enhancers to be used.

  53. What if we just made a whole new "free for all" category where men, women, and others can all compete against each other.

  54. If men compete against women in physical activities men will always win. A mediocre mens swimmer is dominating women and it a direct assault on women and what it is to be a woman. Men are winning woman of the year. All the female doctors, scientists, mothers, and a dude wins. It is deplorable. Men can never be women. This is true in sports and in life. You wouldn't tell a starving anorexic that they are fat just because they think they are. You would get them help so they can see the reality and help them get better. Lets all commit to helping people with gender dysphoria get better and work to reduce the 41% suicide rate (which does not change after surgeries, hormones, or any amount of playing pretend/dress up).

  55. You had me in the first half I'm not gonna lie. We cant use the same diagnosis for anorexia as for gender dysphoria. I am completely against transwomen competing against biological women for the biological advantages that they have over them and do agree with some of what you are saying, however allowing a person with gender dysphoria to live their lives out as what gender the believe they are does benefit them. There are alot of other factors that leads to the suicide rate.

  56. I’m a simple man, people with dicks at birth should compete with other people with dicks from birth, ditto with vaginas. I don’t mean that in any nasty way, that’s just nature. Edit: boy am I gonna get hammered for this haha.

  57. No. A man cannot ever become a woman and allowing men to compete in a women’s field is unfair and unsafe for women. Save Women’s Sports

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